Accessibility Is Home podcast
Welcome to AI Home podcast, the first exclusive podcast on real estate resources and independent living strategies for the disability community. Why? Because Accessibility Is Home. Brought to you by Angela Fox, blogger, and author of “My blue front door”. Ms. Fox will be interviewing Realtors and home improvement contractors who are both disability friendly and others who may have a lot more to learn. Ms. Fox will also provide takeaways for anyone wanting to be a homeowner with a disability.
Accessibility Is Home podcast
Creating a Barrier-Free World: Insights from Disability Advocate Leslie Davis
What happens when an architectural enthusiast, world traveler, and disability advocate merges her passion with her profession? Meet Leslie Davis, who has spent the past 20 years coordinating disability services and making the world a more accessible place during her international travels. After being diagnosed with Guillain-Barre syndrome, she transformed her personal experience with disability into a mission of educating and assisting businesses in becoming more accessible across the globe. As the chairperson of the city's Council for Community Accessibility, she sheds light on her inspiring journey of adapting to traveling with a disability.
Imagine living in a world where every new building is barrier-free. That's a reality in Hungary since 2005, thanks to their law requiring accessibility in all new structures. But, is that kind of legislation feasible or even beneficial in the US? Let's delve into that discussion and also discover how a German woman is transforming her town, one Lego-built ramp at a time. The conversation then takes a turn towards the intersection of accessibility and historic preservation, proving that modifications for accessibility can indeed be aesthetically pleasing.
From a conversation about a German woman named Goldman that creates lego ramps that blend seamlessly into any environment, to the story of an ancient Greek temple built with a ramp, this episode is a refreshing exploration of the world of accessibility and a perfect episode to mark International Day of Persons with Disabilities (December 3rd). You'll be left marveling at how ancient civilizations valued accessibility and the potential for modern-day home modifications. Tune in, be inspired, and take away some special codes to get discounted wheelchair bag and wheelchair ramp. #IDPwD2023 #Disability #realestate #housing #podcasting
Mrs. Davis international travel blog, click here.
Transcript, click here.
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Welcome to AI Home Podcast, the first podcast for real estate resources and independent living strategies for the disability community. Why? Because accessibility is home. Hi, I'm Angela Fox, blogger, author and your host. Now let's begin. Alright, everybody, thank you again. This is Angela Fox, accessibility is home and, as usual, I am in my handicap bathroom, because we know here at the podcast that accessibility at home is beyond the bathroom. Today's guest I have is Leslie Davis. Leslie, say hi to everybody, hi everybody. Leslie is a world traveler and she is going to talk about some of her experience overseas, in particular, what she does here in the United States and how that gives her an opportunity to travel. But really, what I reached out to was I heard that she was an architectural junkie. She also had some fabulous tips about a particular ramp. That will probably talk the end. Leslie, do you want to introduce yourself?
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me. This is fun. I have a day job. I work at Indiana University in Bloomington, indiana. I am the assistant dean for international programs at the law school. Here I work with the international agreements and partnerships and students at the law school. I also do disability coordination at the law school. I have been doing this for 20 years. I started doing it in 2003. Then three years later I became disabled. Like you, angela, I have another one of those weeks.
Speaker 2:Mine was Guillain-Barre syndrome that if anybody has heard of it, they might have heard of it in relation to vaccines or outbreaks of big viruses. Some older people I know who had Guillain-Barre syndrome had it as a result of the swine flu in the 1970s. While COVID has not been that linked to Guillain-Barre, zika virus has been. But honestly, it can be any virus. It is an autoimmune response to a virus, whatever virus you want. Then your immune system attacks the myelin sheath around the nerves and, in some very severe cases, attacks the nerves themselves. One hallmark of Guillain-Barre syndrome is extending paralysis. We finally figured out what was going on. When I say finally, I mean over the course of two days, because it's really fast. I went from non-disabled to paralyzed over the course of two days, but first I couldn't feel my toes and then I couldn't move my feet. Then, as I'm sitting in the area of the ER, also in terrible pain because your body, destroying your nerves, actually really hurts.
Speaker 1:I bet that tickles right. It tickles a little bit.
Speaker 2:No, it feels like somebody's murdering you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the ascending paralysis was the key and then the good thing is that then there's descending non-paralysis Again. This is this to your cases where people are paralyzed at all. I was paralyzed, had to be on a ventilator because my chest muscles wouldn't be able to work and I wouldn't be able to breathe. But most people who at Guillain, who get syndrome, they notice weakness in their paralysis. They notice weakness in their peritural, in their hands, their feet and war paralysis. And then my situation is my nerves regenerated, except from my elbows down and my knees down. The regeneration was only partial. So I have what is affectionately called a hand or my thumbstone opposed and I have foot draw. I can't pick up my feet. So it's a weird thing. In some ways it's like a spinal cord injury, in some ways it's like a mess. So I get to draw from knowledge about all of those things to deal with my particular disability.
Speaker 1:Oh, you know, I'm sorry that happened to you. It sounds like for those two days it was curb and light threatening, but how has that changed your traveling?
Speaker 2:Yes, I used to travel a lot for my job and then this happened in 2006. And I think it wasn't until 2009, when I first traveled outside of a car, and then I haven't looked back since. Those of you with disabilities will get this. There are unique and interesting things about disability that, in a strange way, make life more interesting For me, in many ways more fulfilling, because I can totally geek out now about all kinds of things that I never knew I'd be interested in.
Speaker 1:Oh, I had a need for it. I always tell people if I was not born with my disability, everything would be different. Yeah, I focus. I probably wouldn't be a lawyer. There are just so many things. I would start this podcast and meet you Right. I totally yes, your world changes, but it's not necessarily in a always a better way.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:You find expertise and knowledge. Other people may be with an AD, but you have it like for me at 16. I tell people I can't wait to grow old because I have learned so much about how to deal with only half my body working, because I have complete paralysis, and that way I took 65. I no longer have to have a doctor's note to get any of those services or accommodations. It's just now in the United States at least all your senior citizen. I can't wait until I'm 60.
Speaker 2:I know I have the privilege of teaching older people than myself about accessibility and mobility aids. But back to your other question. There are things besides the traveling also. I'm the chairperson of our city's Council for Community Accessibility. We do all manner of things, but one of the things we do is we do accessibility audits of places, mostly businesses, but we've also done polling places. We've done all the schools in town I get with mine and I at the city are both certified ADA coordinators. But what's most fun is getting to go into my favorite restaurants and coffee shops and saying, okay, you're close, but you know what else you need to do.
Speaker 2:As part of this community. We get good buy-in. We have people reaching out to us saying we really want to be accessible or at least as accessible as possible. Can you come help us figure out what to do? And so we love that.
Speaker 2:The other thing that some of us have started is what we call the mall. The mall stands for the Mobility Aids Lending Library and our mutual friend, Karen, is involved in this and basically this started with my neighbor, another wheelchair user, with MS and I, because both of us are such tech geeks and junkies and we're just like what wheelchair would be better for me now. What other device would be better for me now, and can I afford it or get it somehow? But either it outlived its usefulness or it was not as great as we thought. And there it is, in the basement or in the garage, and we each had experience giving old wheelchairs to other people who needed them and didn't have quick access to them, and so now we are basically like a matchmaking service between people who have mobility devices that are no longer needed and people who need them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of states, not every state. And just for the audience awareness, while I may live in Maryland, I actually grew up in Indiana, northern Indiana. My whole life, most of my education came from Indiana State University, not IU, but so not every state has this. But I do try to recommend people look into the state's assisted technology office, which is hopefully housed in a disability office and not the senior and aging, but sometimes it's located there too.
Speaker 1:And a lot of assisted technology offices will have these technology loans not just loans for money but also equipment and over the years and decade, assisted technology has also now included wheelchair specific beds that you might need for your house, or a ramp that you can use, a portable ramp that you can use and so there are actually things that you could get loaned or even given for free that you can use within your house if you look in your state's office assisted technology office. But there's all kinds of independent, like the mall that you just mentioned, Facebook. There's a million different Facebook groups that are trying to sell equipment by disabled people or just for free. If you're new to the disability community, look into it and don't automatically think that you necessarily have to buy something. Facebook faces medical equipment. They will not let you sell it for liability reasons, no way, I didn't.
Speaker 1:I was trying to sell my extra travel wheelchair that got slightly damaged from an airline. I could not post it on Facebook and to make up a fake description and just have the photo and most of these disability equipment Facebook groups. They gave me that tip. It's not false advertising, people. If you're in it you know that's what's going on. So when the description doesn't match, the photo is to walk around with Facebook.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you for that tip.
Speaker 1:You're welcome and always. Here's a fun fact, as we're talking about traveling the Department of Transportation just put out the final guidelines for accessible bathrooms on airplanes.
Speaker 2:I heard Sadly, it's all airplanes bill something like two years from now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's a good segue about how tiny when things are built for like housing and things like that, that really makes a big difference on when things accessible and I know you have had some experience overseas Would you like to talk to the audience about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I travel a lot to Asia but also to Europe and I had got a history of and relatives in Hungary, where I go a lot, and to the European Union countries and these are all very old cities. Those of us who've been to New York and Boston and Chicago, for example, where the buildings were built so long before the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed 33 years ago that existing buildings, while the ADA covers them, the ADA doesn't mandate and there's no ADA police, it doesn't mandate the gap to destroy that one step that's in front of your building to get into it.
Speaker 2:If you're changing the entrance, that's another story, but in Europe there are generally very few rules governing existing structures. I roll around Budapest and every place I might want to go in almost has just one step, and what's interesting is that most people in Europe and probably most people in the United States too, I have to say they think that just one step is accessible. And Europe is so far behind when it comes to the accessibility of the built environment, in large part because everything is sold. Nothing was designed to be accessible back in the day, because you know what you had to worry about floods, you had to worry about mud, you had to worry about horses and their droppings and all kinds of reasons why people might have wanted to live higher than street level.
Speaker 2:I get it. I get it Most of those things, climate change notwithstanding, but most of those things aren't the issue anymore. But it is very hard to get old countries to suddenly say oh yeah, sure, we're on board with that, we will modify all of our buildings, no problem. What they hide behind is, in my opinion, they hide behind is everybody will say it's a historic building, we couldn't possibly change it, and that's funny because we have that problem here in the United States.
Speaker 1:Our houses and buildings are not nearly as old. But one thing I tell people when they're looking to buying a home and you're disabled or you're conscious about having aging in place, that you do not want to buy a historical home because of these issues.
Speaker 2:The law I was telling you about in Hungary most. So there's very little in the law about specifically mentioning existing construction, but except, of course, historic preservation. But new construction is assumed, in most European cities at least, that you're not building a single family home, you're building a building that has units in it, and I think it's since 2005,. New buildings need to be barrier free and if they have more than two stories which in European standards that would be like three stories, because they don't call the place where you enter the first floor, they call it the ground floor then it must also have an elevator.
Speaker 2:But I learned from my good friend who does disability law stuff in Hungary. He just bought a new single family house on the outskirts of Budapest, so where they actually do have some standalone houses and nobody way that a new single family home would be exempted from this. So he said, yeah, it's a barrier free entrance and because it's not more than it has two stories in our parliament rather than two stories in the Hungarian sense, it doesn't have an elevator. And he was apologetic that it didn't have an elevator and I said, no, the fact that your house by law had to be had to have no steps. That's where I'm impressed, because we don't you know.
Speaker 1:We all have that. We all have that.
Speaker 2:You have to build all of your houses now, without steps. Can you imagine the after our?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. There's two things I think we want to glean from this, and that is one is ironic that Hungary technically has a law that requires new construction to be barrier free, or zero entry way, as we call it in the United States, while in United States I know we keep saying this we don't have that. We don't have that as a requirement for single family homes. And it's also interesting that Hungary, as you just mentioned, there's so many old buildings. They didn't really expect to have a lot of new construction and so they didn't really put a lot of thought behind it, probably because of that. Oh yeah, we'll probably just put that in and the chances of that being an issue is like once in a blue moon, right, right, but yet in United States we have the land. Here in the United States we have tons of land, we are not on top of each other, we have land that hasn't even had any buildings on it and we are constantly building new homes and yet yet we don't have that law. That's interesting that that has occurred.
Speaker 1:I think it's also interesting in vagueness can actually be your friend in the structure language of the law. And one thing that I always advocate and I tell people. It's actually a very interesting time right now for the disability community as far as making private sector housing, home ownership accessible, not because we have the law, but because we don't. So what I tell people is, if you want to hire a contractor to make your house accessible, the only framework they are is the ADA guidelines. All right, that's all the. What I might have some sort of fair housing act stuff, but building code and so they may will make assumption that they have to apply that to your personal house and unless your zoning and your county code has something specifically for private sector housing, that doesn't apply. So that means you can do whatever you want for your home and you can really monetize it or structure it in a way that meets your specific needs, because we don't have the law Exactly.
Speaker 1:And there are many different organizations right now that are trying to address this and saying, okay, this is what the ADA has, but that's not good enough, and since there's no law, we're going to make up our own guidelines and we're going to publish it, and I have it on my website, and so now it's only a voluntary basis.
Speaker 2:There's something I've been running into that reminds me of exactly this. It's I wouldn't trade having the ADA for the world but, that being said, when I work in other countries, I realize that it is possible to do things that, by ADA standards, wouldn't strictly meet the letter of the law, but it can make a place accessible for a large number of people. So I don't know if anybody has seen this German woman who calls herself the Legogramma. You've seen her, angela?
Speaker 1:I've read about it. I would love to get a hold of her habit on this podcast. I can put you in touch.
Speaker 2:She's not an English speaker but she uses deep L translation and all of her English language emails are perfect. But her she's a wheelchair user. I can't remember why. I think she's in her 60s, perhaps early 70s. She lives in a small town in Germany, not far from Stuttgart, and all the houses, all the shops, they've got one step, and so she started building ramps made out of Legos and they are customized for the person who lives in the house or for the business the candy shop has, like one of the hurryboat, bears on with their adorable and they don't try to bridge more than one step. Generally, and in some cases, it's not one solid piece but two pieces, like those ramps.
Speaker 1:A whale.
Speaker 2:It's still a little scary to use because you have to make sure your whales are exactly where they should be, and the thing is that means that she and many other people with wheelchairs and that all the other people who benefit from all the other kinds of wheel devices the majority of people can access those places, versus not being able to access them at all. And none of them, to my eye, look dangerously scary. But of course that is all a very subjective thing. But none of them are one to 12. They are, they just aren't. And maybe some of them are one to eight, which the ADA says you can do for a short stretch. The problem is and I've been trying to get some of these built in my city and the problem is that, even if it's a temporary ramp, I've got the OK for us to do it, but it must meet the minimum, which is one to eight in special circumstances. They're just starting off Legos for one to eight. There really aren't, unless you've just got like a three inch step. So this is problematic.
Speaker 2:But Canada recently passed a nationwide disability law. I don't know how recently, but I thought there was one. It's the Canadians with Disabilities Act, but I thought that had been in place for a lot longer than it has, because, having visited British Columbia, they are doing a great job. But I only recently learned that accessibility was a province by province thing and was not a national thing until recently. But the longer you wait, the more built up you get, the harder it is to enforce retroactive disability legislation.
Speaker 2:But in Canada there is this great nonprofit organization called StopGap. Very similar to the Lego ramps, they build and paint very colorfully wood in ramps, essentially wood in wedges, ok, and I don't think they're one to eight either necessarily. But the Canadians with Disabilities Act is not so stringent that they can't use them and the key is that they are temporary, so you have to put them down and take them up and somebody has to be trained to use them and there are liability waivers. But it allows them just enough more flexibility that they, for example, could do Lego ramps in places where we can't.
Speaker 1:I love the idea of Lego ramps because it's something that the disability community can make themselves. One thing that I've been trying to research so very much listening, I know that having 3D printers are all the way and I'm always looking for somebody who is disabled, who has built through a 3D printer ramps or anything that you can use within the home, and it really has been, as far as I see, a few things. But if anybody is listening, you want to be on the podcast to talk about that, but I really like the idea that we can do that ourselves. It's fun and it's playful to be able to do.
Speaker 1:Now I know and here's a fun interception is that the standards for the ADA really were from a previous standard that was not national and I won't spoil it because you have to listen to my episodes, but the drivers behind that will really then who are disabled. As a result of that, these inclinings are not really gender neutral, because we do know that there can't be a difference as far as the strength. That makes the odd differences between strength of women and men, but these standards were really designed from a man's perspective. There's always been this discussion that maybe the ADA needs to have more flexibility either way for that, because it was really just focused on one gender, but that's just a little sign of digress. But that's really important for inclusion of different people when you're making these laws, because sometimes you make it good for one and the other right.
Speaker 2:Yep, and it is hard to be all things to all people.
Speaker 1:Now I know that you use a special ramp yourself and you have a few other resources.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I have this on a quest and this is again. This is as a result of spending time in Europe, but also in older US cities. Just the problem of the one step and the fact that a lot of the places I go, I am going alone and whatever I'm carrying especially if I'm traveling and I've got to carry luggage I've got to carry it myself, and so I was on the hunt. For years, I've been on the hunt for a portable ramp that didn't weigh 100 pounds, that was actually manageable and out of the stuff I saw on Amazon or on Easy Access Ramps. There are lots of great sources for ramps if you're going to install them, but I can't even begin to tell you that. The rabbit holes I went down and what's app chats I was having with people in Singapore before I finally got connected to a company that distributes a ramp made in Japan by the Dunlop Company, dunlop of.
Speaker 2:Like tennis balls and tires, this Dunlop ramp is made of fiberglass reinforced with carbon fiber, which means it's super light, and it comes in a variety of lengths. The one that I have is 27 inches, so a little over two feet. There's actually even a shorter one that I cannot get my hands on in the United States yet. But the one I have is a bifold ramp. I can put it behind my back in my wheelchair or my travel wheelchair has this cargo net I have fixed to the back and I can put it in there. I can list it with one finger or two fingers. It weighs seven pounds, which is actually more than I thought it weighed, because it literally seems so light, and I will deploy it to get into a shop, to get into an apartment, with one step. If I find myself on one of those sidewalks with no way to get off, I will use it there. I will use it in a pinch if the accessible metro or trolley or what have you isn't accessible at that stop. So let me just put a shout out.
Speaker 2:It is distributed in the United States and worldwide by a company called Goldman G-U-L-D-M-A-N-N. It's a Danish company and the line is called Stepless In the US. They have offices in Florida Maybe it's Miami and in Boston. Also, on my website, which is called EverybodyInInternational, under the resources tab it gives you the contact information and if you tell them, I said to you, you'll get a 20% discount on the ramp. That's what we need and they aren't cheap. That's what I got to say. They are not cheap and the 20% discount was useful. And then I decided that for my lot of work and for what I do, it means that I can say, okay, yeah, I am. Actually I can stay in that place because I can negotiate that step. Now they make them all the way up to a little over six feet, which is 21 pounds for a six foot ramp, can you?
Speaker 1:imagine. No, I have my book on how to approach buying a mine, buying a home, which includes working with real estate agents, and how to research and everything. I do have a resource section and I have the Amazon what they call soup case metal ramp that I have in back of my van, but that's still bloody heavy. I could pick it up on my own but I'd lie on my wheelchair by playing it on my panel. That's insane how light that is. Yeah, one thing I want to just quickly circle back when it comes to like historical buildings, because again we have that issue here in the United States with you buying a home that historical. How do you like? How do you address people when they say you're going to destroy the historicalness of that building?
Speaker 2:I know we run into this in the United States, but it's usually where people more likely are. People are saying, oh, we're grandfathered in which we know isn't actually a thing. But I honestly think the US is a bit better about this. When it comes to places on the historic register, and to the extent that those are overseen by the National Park Service, there is a whole manual on how to make those buildings accessible to visitors. And this is the point I try to make with people who will say, oh, we can't, possibly, because we're often not actually the ones defending the building. They're saying here's why we're not accessible, it's not our fault, it's the historic preservation, it's the historic heritage, et cetera. And then I will show them things. I will show them products like this same company.
Speaker 2:This Goldman makes something that is called a platform lift where and they are using this in churches of singing it in some cathedrals in England, which actually the UK is quite a bit further advanced than a lot of Europe in this area.
Speaker 2:It basically looks just like the marble floor leading up to the marble steps, but it's bounded by like a brass border and there's a little button somewhere. You roll onto that, you push the button and this section of marble floor lifts up and brings you level with the altar or whatever it is if it's in a church. But my point is, if you care about historic preservation, then you know that you have to have people who appreciate historic buildings, are willing to keep them up, are willing to divert government funding to their upkeep. And if you have an aging population and an increasingly disabled population or population of people who have gone to war and are coming back with disabilities, you are missing out on a huge subset of the population. Disabled people are the world's largest minority. You are missing out on their support. I frankly find it so insulting for somebody to say we couldn't possibly put a ramp because what? It would be ugly.
Speaker 1:It's the idea that you're somehow changing it and therefore it's no longer historic as well. But historic is a relative term because, yeah, you want to keep things as intact as they were, but things fall apart and when you are trying to fix it you are using somewhat modern materials. You're not using the exact same materials, let's just say, the exact same materials that originally built that build. They don't usually exist. So you're doing replicas right, you're doing things that look like they belong there, but the point is that you're always changing, and it may seem odd to be talked about this in a disability home ownership podcast, but just in my city, in Rockville, there is the old Rockville and a lot of these big mansion halls which are very expensive milk dogs.
Speaker 1:They are privately owned but they are under the historical society list and so if you buy these homes, you have to sign that you have to get permission to change a few things. So imagine if you become disabled when you buy later in life after you bought this home, or if you have family or friends that you want to come that are disabled. So there is this problem with disability home ownership, but at the end of the day, what you just said about having that marble level ramp to get into churches. What we're really talking about is does it look like it belongs? Does it look nice?
Speaker 1:It doesn't look like it belongs. That's what we're really talking about.
Speaker 1:And it was really interesting about that is you also have that same concept where you're dealing with HOAs. Yeah, all right, hoas, while there is some language in the Fair Housing Act, you still have to go through their reasonable accommodation exception and go through them, and a lot of things that HOAs are requiring are not necessarily safety issues. The cost do? We all look the same and so that's the same kind of background that you have with historical buildings and historical homes. So at the end of the day, it's about does it look like it belongs there and is it pretty?
Speaker 2:And you can take that a step further by saying does it look like it belongs? If the answer is no, it means that I don't look like I belong, thank you, and that is blatant housing discrimination.
Speaker 1:I actually did an episode about how HOAs really came from segregation. I talked about how it dramatically has impacted Black disabled homeowners in HOA-gated communities or other similar-gated communities. So it's still much of a problem. You're right. It's do we belong? Do we belong there? What we need to get into things is do we really belong there? You're absolutely right.
Speaker 2:Have you told your listeners before about that Greek temple?
Speaker 1:Thank you. No, I have not Thank you so?
Speaker 1:much, lethly. I would love to do that. So Lethly and I talked a little bit about her travels and things, and one thing that I ran across is there was an article it was from an archaeological site on disabilities and they found a temple in Greek during the Greek gods and they found a actual ramp that was built for this particular goddess and the reason why was that particular god in Greek and Roman times was to heal, and back then they have enough forethoughts to think well, if this god is about healing people and people need to get into to make sacrifice to be healed maybe the people coming have mobility difficulties and therefore we're going to build, not with steps, like all the other gods, we're going to build a ramp. Now, it was several thousand years ago, ladies and gentlemen, and they thought about it. I don't understand why in modern times, we're not thinking about that in a similar way. Thank you, lethly, for bringing it up.
Speaker 1:Everybody, if you're getting pushed back about this is such a new concept or only been around for two, three decades. No one has it. I'll try to find the article put up in a blog post because the Greek OK, the Greeks thought about it. Maybe not as expensive as we are thinking about it today, but they thought about it even back. So ramps have been around this civilization, really this civilization. So thank you, leslie, for reminding me that fun All right. Thank you everybody for joining us, leslie and I and please stay tuned for how to follow up.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:HorizontalHousescom is the hub for all things related to disability home ownership. You will find my blog, this podcast, my book and how my consulting services can help real estate agents or healthy developers market and tap into the largest minority group, the disability community. Please help me continue this exploration of disability home ownership by connecting through my Facebook page. Remember, sharing our collective experiences will allow us each to lower the kitchen sink but raise the bar for disability home ownership. Thank you.